Gwyneth Paltrow and Chris Martin have done a great job of remaining friends, but it doesn’t mean their breakup was easy.

The goop founder opened up about her “unconscious coupling” from Martin in a candid conversation with Dax Shepard on the Armchair Expert podcast.

“It had been coined in the ’70s, I think,” Paltrow said of the term they used to describe their 2014 split. “It’s such a beautiful concept. You’re staring down the barrel of a divorce, the worst outcome possible. My parents were married until my dad died. All my best friends … all their parents were married, they all married their college or high school person, they’re still married.”

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“I just didn’t come from a world where there was a lot of divorce,” she explained. “The most common wound that I heard from children of divorce was, ‘My parents couldn’t be in the same room and couldn’t be friends. It took three years, it took 18 years, it took — God forbid — the death of a close family member for them to sit at the same table.'”

That got Paltrow thinking: “I just thought, ‘I wonder if there’s a way to circumvent that and go directly to the point where we’re friends and we remember what we loved about each other, and constantly acknowledge that we created these incredible human beings together.’”

Nonetheless, breakups are never easy, and Paltrow experienced plenty of hardship. “I think at the time, I was in a lot of pain,” she said. “It felt like such a failure to me. It was so hard, and I was so worried about my kids.”

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“It was brutal,” she said of the negative reaction. “I already felt like I had no skin on.”

The ex-couple have done a terrific job of creating a modern family environment. Martin and his new girlfriend, Dakota Johnson, have spent time with Paltrow. Martin even joined Paltrow and her new husband, Brad Falchuk, for the holidays.

Martin and Paltrow were married for 11 years before they announced their separation in 2014.